“Breakfast Club Webinar - The Use of DAAB's in Shipbuilding”

ArbDB Chambers have hosted some informative Webinars as part of a regular series.

Please find the links to recordings in this section

More Information

“Breakfast Club Webinar - The Use of DAAB's in Shipbuilding”

Guest Speaker: Ben Goss of Goss Maritime

Hosted by: John Papworth and Michael Cover

Transcript

“These transcripts have been automatically created. We apologise for any errors and will correct names etc. if we are alerted to them”

So that's that's me in a nutshell. What I thought I'd do is start by giving a bit of history of the shipbuilding industry to provide a bit of context to the situation today, especially for those who are not familiar with with the maritime industry. Then I'll talk about what's going on in the industry today and developments in the sort of wider maritime and port sector that might hold prospects for dispute boards in the future. Please feel free to chip in with any comments or questions via the chat function as we go along. I think we've got some time allocated at the end for questions and discussion. And I know Martin, who's behind the scenes on the tech side can also patch people in from the audience if needs be, so feel free to contribute. And so a brief history of shipbuilding. The UK is a good place to start. The UK has a rich history of shipbuilding dating as far back as the Roman conquest and until recently as the 1960s really shipbuilders ownership rights and references to to city ship rights date as far back as the 13th century. Until the until the 19th century, shipbuilding was centred around London and the Thames initially and and there was also important oil cards in Herod Shin s, Plymouth and Portsmouth. In the 1570s.

 

The famous golden hind in which Sir Francis Drake, also known as the Queen's pirates, circumnavigated the globe between 1577 and 1580. That ship was built in Plymouth, Devon, and the replica that can be found in London today was built at Appledore shipyard also in Dublin in 1973. You had Lord Nelson's 100 gm HMS victory that was built in 1759 to 1765 at Chatham dockyard on on the river Medway in Kent, using 5000 oak trees in the process Apparently, she was reconstructed in 1798 and fought in the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805. And in 1922, that ship was moved to a to a dry dock at Portsmouth and preserved as a museum ship where you can still view her today. She's been the flagship of the First Sea Lord since October 2012, and is the world's oldest naval ship still in commission with 242 years of service as of this year. It was in the 18th century really that some of the maritime industries best known institutions were founded. Lloyd's Register was founded in 1760 in a coffee house in Lombard Street in London, to give merchants and underwriters recorded information on the on the quality of their vessels. The registered book listed vessels rated or classed after the condition of their holes and equipment had been surveyed.

 

The subscription is generated by the register book paid for the surveyors carry out their work, and this was the beginning of classification societies as they're known today, and Lloyd's remains a leading classification society still today. Around the same time as Lloyd's Register was founded, so mid 1700s what is known or now known as the bowtie exchange, was being formed in another coffee house nearby the Virginia and Baltic coffeehouse on Threadneedle street in London, English coffee houses in the 17th and 18th centuries were important places for merchants and sea captains to exchange news and negotiate contracts or carriage was the influence of the boertie exchange as a forum for circulating cargoes and ship positions, has waned. Following the advent of telephone and modern communication. It still remains an integral part of the fabric of the global maritime community, amongst other things, producing an index of trade routes and market rates on the back of which free derivatives are traded.

 

Or getting back to the to the ships British tea clippers. Were a big feature of the 19th century merchant fleet, designed for speed they were now and had a large total sale area and were built in response to a growing demand for faster delivery from tea from China. The Cutty Sark is is a fine example of those those ships. The Industrial Revolution caused a boom in shipping demand. on tables were needed for imports manufactured goods were exported and there was a huge need for coal to to power all of these things. Ship size is increased in the 19th century due to change from wood to iron and then to steel. And in the 1870s more efficient engines were introduced to sailing ships like the T clippers began to be phased out yards it's around that time to the yard in the northeast and in Scotland became dominant and those in East Anglia started to decline. So by the 19th century, Britain had built the largest merchant fleet in the world. Half of the ocean going teenagers under the British Red enzyme flag, and British yards produced the majority of the world's shipping at the end of the century, mostly steam trampers. The 20th century and the two world wars saw large chunks of the merchant shipping fleet sunk, whilst the fleets of other neutral countries expanded, but Britain's fleet was replenished during a shipping boom in the 1950s and excluding tankers, and the US war reserve, Britain still had the world's largest merchant fleet in in 1957.

 

The boom continued into the 60s, with ships getting bigger and bigger. containerisation changed the world by sort of revolutionising the flow of goods, but shipping and shipbuilding influence. By that time was shifting unmistakeable toward the east, and the UK shipbuilding went in steep decline. The oil industry of the earliest of the 19 early 1970s led to a deep depression in shipping and the global fleet size remained pretty unchanged until 1990. by which time there was very little shipbuilding left in the UK, so, so the UK went from being the preeminent global ship builder until as recently as the 1950s. to having less than a 1% market share by the end of the century, losing out to shipbuilders in Asia, mostly with who had operated with far lower labour costs and access to cheaper materials.

 

And all that being said, the UK is still the fifth largest trading nation exporting 26% of its gross domestic product, with 95% of that trade going by sea, so ships and shipping remain an integral part of the of the UK economy. In fact, according to maritime UK, the maritime sector contributes 46 billion pounds in gross value added to the UK economy and supports over a million jobs. And that's without much shipbuilding. What the UK have managed to keep hold of throughout the decline in shipbuilding is a world leading position in maritime services such as insurance, law shipbroking education and training, as well as equipment and supplies and until recently fairly recently, ship finance as well. The London maritime arbitrators Association handle over 80% of maritime disputes globally, consisting of just under 3000 appointments in 2019. And London law firms and their overseas offices are world leaders in maritime related disputes are by far the world's largest ship broker. Clarkson's is a London based firm, as are many of its major competitors, and all these firms like Lloyd's Register our global businesses today. So that provides a bit of historical context. Why is shipbuilding interesting to us now in the UK and and what are the prospects for dispute boards? You might think it's a very good question given the historical context but but actually, there are some potentially very interesting developments afoot in UK shipbuilding.

 

First and foremost, the Navy needs more ships to large state of the art aircraft carriers have just been built or are being built in in Rosyth dockyard in in Scotland, the largest warships ever built for the Royal Navy, and plans are afoot to replace ageing support vessels as well, and a fleet of five type 31 general purpose frigates are due to be built by a consortium of companies led by Babcock International, the first of which is usually built at Rosyth as well, but other shipyards have expected to be to be used in the construction of this this series of ships, the first of which is estimated to be in the water in 2023. And, and in service sometime between 2025 and 2027. This order alone is estimated to cost just under 2 billion pounds and support over 2500 jobs in the UK across the UK.

 

The government have also committed to buying eight type 26 Global combat ships assigned contracts for the first three. Sorry our contract was signed the first three in July 2017. To be built by ba systems on the Clyde in Scotland. A contract for the second batch of five is expected to be awarded this or next year, and the government intends to buy two possibly three fleet solid support vessels for the Royal fleet auxiliary used to supply the ships and forces with with sea or at sea with food ammunition and spares. The competition for that is an international one but the government is under pressure to prioritise UK shipbuilders and UK content generally. There's also a drive by the UK defence industry and by government to target exports of naval ships systems and equipment. So the theory is that these naval orders should provide a platform on which UK shipbuilders can tool up and compete for engine National Business and the scope for UK shipbuilders isn't restricted to naval orders. Rather, the naval orders can potentially provide a springboard for which UK shipbuilders can can resurrect themselves and participate in other sectors as well. So aside from the naval aspect of UK shipbuilding, the UK has the largest and most developed offshore wind industry in the world. The UK offshore wind industry is about 20 years old. It's young, and the UK market was the biggest offshore wind market globally for the past nine years, and is set to grow considerably further. In 2019, the equivalent of 10% of the UK total electricity demand was produced by offshore wind, enough to power 30% of household electricity consumption. And that was that was in 2019, there was 10 gigawatts of operating capacity into in 2019. With more in the pipeline, and by 2030, the government wants to have 30 gigawatts of capacity, which equates to over 40 billion pounds worth of infrastructure spending in the next decade and one to two gigawatts. increased capacity per year to 2030. Now, just to put those those numbers in perspective, a little bit a one gigawatt wind farm would consist of 110 megawatt turbines, each standing over 200 metres tall. The installed cost of 110 megawatt turbine is about 10 million pounds. And that is a fraction of the cost of developing building and maintaining the wind farm and all its and all its infrastructure, and its connection to the National Grid. So the investment is enormous. And it's and it's long term. These wind farms are located in Scotland, East Anglia, Wales and Northern England, which are all areas that are in dire need of investment and jobs. In 2019, the UK had 45% market share of European offshore wind generating capacity, followed by Germany with 34%. And globally, some estimates envisage.

 

17% annual growth from 22 megawatts to 154 megawatts in total installed capacity by 2030. So, there's a lot going on in the offshore wind sector undoubtedly. Why is this interesting? Well, many if not all, UK shipyards already fabricating wind turbines and or being used in the installation process. And so we're involved already in the offshore wind sector, and the government wants to push the UK content of future wind farms up from from 50 to 60%. So industry is being actively encouraged to expand to the UK supply chain to cater to that and that means skills and labour, equipment and technology, much of which has been imported imported from European manufacturers to date. linked to that, this new industry and market is increasingly demanding new purpose built tonnage to instal service and maintain these offshore wind farms with the latest cutting edge technology. Arguably UK shipbuilders are well placed to participate in that. For example, it was recently announced the company called Scorpio bulkers had placed an order at a Korean shipyard for a state of the art wind turbine installation vessel at a cost of around $290 million. They also have options for three additional units, which they have said they do anticipate declaring interest in me too. They have no charter coverage for the ships currently, although it is expected that they that they will get it imminently. And it's also recognised that this order is a drop in the ocean in terms of the tonnage that will be required to instal all the future wind turbines. Now, and I'm not suggesting that UK shipyards could have built those ships today. And it might be that UK ship builders should focus at least initially on smaller service operation and maintenance vessels initially. And these sorts of ships run at a cost of closer to $50 million, as opposed to $300 million. And they're being built currently in other European shipyards already. And what this does demonstrate is that there's a new market forming. And actually one of the first movers amongst ship owners to that market is a US publicly listed broker company. You can imagine how confused their investors were.

 

And then as a matter of decarbonisation, I mean, this is all happening at a time when the global shipping industry is having to grapple with decarbonisation. And the clock is ticking for the industry to come up with new propulsion systems and, and ways to reduce and eventually eliminate its carbon footprint by inventing clean green vessels of the future. A lot of investment is needed in research and development and technical innovations around engines and propulsion systems, which is taking place at different speeds in different shipping sectors all around the world. So there's a lot going on. There's a lot of change of 30 the industry generally and certainly also in the UK. In 2016, sir john Parker published an independent review of the state of the UK shipbuilding industry, and the contribution that it could make to the British economy and his recommendations were almost entirely accepted by government and included in a new national shipbuilding strategy in 2017. That strategy completely overhauled the way the mo D procures surface ships with ba systems no longer being the default main supplier, rather ship design and build has been opened up to competition. The strategy is intended to sort of energise the UK shipbuilding industry and retain an increased naval engineering skills in sustained jobs and, and it appears to be having some success. Harland and Wolff in Belfast were bought out of administration by London listed infrastrucutre in 2019. And in joint venture with nav untier of Spain. They're vying for orders and recently also acquired the historic Appledore shipyard in Devon.

 

You may have seen Boris Johnson and the CEO john wood on the news regarding that just a couple of weeks ago. So the government is engaged in and committed to the idea of UK shipbuilding, contributing to a more general increase in manufacturing capability in the UK and there appears to be a high level of interaction between government and the maritime industry in general. That and the real possibility of new orders being placed as has spurred a flurry of activity like the Harland and Wolff, for example, I provided and going back to the to the national shipbuilding strategy. What's interesting for advocates of dispute boards is that it incorporates a clear governance structure, including a requirement for project delivery boards, as I mentioned earlier, that appear to me to be on the face of it what we associate with dispute boards, with the stated aim of injecting pace into the procurement process and emphasising the benefit of collaborative rather than combative approach to the contract, which are all approaches I think the drB I fully supports. And I'm not aware of any such boards are actually in existence yet.

 

But it's certainly encouraging that they are an embedded part of the national shipbuilding strategy. I'm not sure that private shipyards and buyers of commercial vessels will pay much attention to the national shipbuilding strategy. I don't think there's any requirement for them to do so as such, but as the initial shipbuilding activity is likely to be on the back of government naval contracts. It's interesting and positive that their sets feature there and perhaps might set a precedent for wider adoption by shipbuilders in commercial contracts as well. So other than naval orders, where else might dispute boards fit in? or certainly I think there's an opportunity for within the the wind farm offshore wind farm sector. It's encouraging that the government have chosen to adopt delivery boards in enable ship procurements are going forward. The government via the crown estate are responsible for leasing the seabed for the development of wind farms. I don't know whether or toward extend project delivery boards are a feature of those leases and the plethora of contracts underneath them. But it would be fantastic. Obviously, if project delivery boards were to be adopted there as well. wind farms are large scale high value projects involving collaboration between a vast array of suppliers, contractors and stakeholders over an extended period of time spanning the lifecycle of a wind farm. So I think it's fair to say that shipbuilding contract Yeah, shipbuilding contracts for standard commercial vessels built at shipyards in Asia, as they have invariably been done for the last 2030 years have have rarely if ever feature the dispute board.

 

Neither I or fellow arbitrators that I've spoken to have come across them before. brokers have, I suppose filled part of the role of a dispute board by being a third party facility facilitator and sounding board but usually the brokers role tends to diminish when the contract is signed and construction actually starts. A lot of shipbuilding construction in the past 20 years has been relatively standard designs with tried and tested construction procedures and a lot of repeat business as well, which may or may be another factor that pupils haven't featured. And also trust between builder and buyer is very important for Asian shipyards. And I can easily imagine that introducing a third party sort of moderator into a contract is something that they would be uncomfortable with culturally and sometimes shipbuilding contracts will include a provision for technical for technical disputes, to be referred to and decided by the classification society or or designated technical experts. But class societies will usually restrict themselves to making decisions if the issue concerns your interpretation of class rules and the dispute resolution clause. usually requires that consent of both parties

 

be received to decide that the dispute is a technical one. Often they can't agree to that, in which case, the dispute resolution clause is triggered. And parties move either to mediation or arbitration or recourse by the courts. And so, so they've not featured today's relationship building generally over the past couple of decades at least. I think the opportunity for dispute boards lies more in orders involving new cutting edge technologies, sophisticated designs, such as those for the offshore wind sector, and in contracts and incorporate new technology and long term collaboration is generally the the service or maintenance of offshore wind farms being one such example. If Of course, the right people can be it can be persuaded of the merits. So I will end there and open up the floor or microphone for any comments or questions, and would certainly be happy to hear thoughts and ideas on other areas in the maritime sector, that people think that dispute boards might have a role to play. But back to you, Michael.

 

Okay. Thank you very much, Ben for that something of a tour de force actually. I had actually be a bit of an armchair warrior. I had read the national shipbuilding strategy when it came out and actually had failed to spot project delivery board service, go back and have a look at that. And what we have been trying to talk to the Ministry of Defence about to dispute boards, particularly in the context of armoured vehicles. So I'm gonna stick that out, because I think that's quite an important point. Now, in terms of questions, let's, let's just to deal with the poll questions first. So the first question was whether people had encountered da bees in non construction settings and 90% of people said no. And the answer to the second poll question about encountering da bees in shipbuilding 90%. No. So we've at least on the second one, about shipbuilding, two people said yes, now, we don't know who they are. But if you were to identify or so be quite interesting to hear from you. So perhaps Martin can keep a lookout for people who might have said yes, if you identify yourself. And then Martin can turn you into a panellist and you can speak up. So, Martin, is anybody showing themselves?

 

Not as yet? Not as yet. Okay, you'd like to use the chat facility? If you wish to speak, I can adjust accordingly. Okay, well, let's um, that just while we're waiting on that one, Davao in, who helps? Well, he really runs and I started at the mediators new Breakfast Club. He's got a point here says I heard on the wireless. That's very old fashioned word, isn't it? Probably on the home service last night that California produces so much electricity by PV installation. So that's I guess, solar power that it pays not just gives for free surrounding states to take its excess load, so as not to overload its electricity system at peak production. thoughts, please. I mean, Ben, you were talking about decarbonisation in the shipbuilding industry. I wondered whether you had any thoughts about that. It's a bit like, you know, at one point, the old price not that long ago went negative, didn't it?

 

Yeah, but I mean, I think to, uh, to address the California points, I mean, they have a hell of a lot more sunshine than we have here in in Blighty. So, and I'm not sure what the what the situation with offshore and wind is generally in California, certainly, the UK has is recognised as having fantastic conditions for for wind. And we all know we don't get a huge amount of sunshine. So I think certainly, in terms of the energy mix, offshore wind for the UK has been identified and proven to be far more efficient and cost effective for us in the UK, given our conditions then then solar.

 

And it sounds like perhaps that's you know, the situation is reversed in California, certainly of the wind farm developments taking place that I'm aware of in the EU in the US or that it kind of in the pipeline in the US all off of Massachusetts and the North East Coast of the US. Because I think I assume because of the favourable wind conditions there, but certainly offshore wind has overtaken onshore wind in terms of economics and viability generally.

 

Okay. I think Jim Daniels said he has experience of DOB and shipyards, but only with all right Martin, is it possible for you to connect with Jim and see if he can actually talk to us? Yes, goodbye. Thank you.

 

Jim, you should be able to join as a panellist in the moment to be able to speak there is no Jim. He's muted. Okay. Let's try and do mute. Stop video. Okay. I don't know what. How are you? Very, very good.

 

Well, you're very welcome. You said that you'd encounter DBS in the oil rig sector? Yes.

 

Yes. And I've just written the article. And I don't know for which magazine it's going, but they say they accepted it. So it should be published very soon. About. I don't know if others can. Oh, no, no, I can see. Yeah, yes. But can you hear me talking? Yes, yes, yes. Okay, fine. Sorry about that. But I've just written an article I say I can't say the publication. But it's due out sometime in the next three, four weeks about dispute boards in shipbuilding. But one particular event, I suppose, that I think is worthy of the use of the district boards is a during the visit to the yard, I found that a significant part of the contract had not been performed, the shipyard had somehow neglected or forgotten to instal an electrical system in the hole of the vessel, the drilling rig. And this could have been a real problem, if the client suddenly found out that that had been missed, then there would be a lot of difficult work in in a position that should have been dealt with very early on. And to get back into the double bottoms and search of a drilling rig is not easy work. So it would have put the contract into a real delay. I asked the shipyard about this and said, This hasn't been done. And they said yes, and we hope you don't say anything about it. I didn't. And fortunately, the client didn't pick up on it. So the shipyard got away with it. And I emphasise this point, because the dispute board is not there, to run the contract, the ship yard is doing the work and of course, the clients there to do the inspection. And you're there to sort of guide them to prevent disputes. And that's why I raised it with the shipyard that they were aware that this wasn't a mission. And they were aware, but just keep church. And I think that is the way you can keep the job going as it were. Now, if it came to a head, then I'm afraid I would have had to recite it with the client and said, yes, it is in the contract, you must do it. And so the fact that it's difficult now, you should have done it earlier. But there are peculiarities like that that arise. But I always emphasise that you're not there to run the contract. You're there to stop them from blocking some stopping the contract.

 

Yeah. But and presumably, Jim, you were acting as a consultant to the shipyard on that job where, you

 

know, it was a a job for, if you like, well as a dispute board. Thank you. So you were the DB. I was the DB. Yeah. Okay. There was several other things that I did assist with, but it's not worth going into. Okay.

 

JOHN, it might be worth you making an observation about that. Because that when I did a D, D RBF, two day course, a month or so ago by two distinguished American gentleman, they were very much emphasising exactly what Jim says you're not there to run the contract. I'd be interested to hear john, what you've had been on lots of dispute boards. And if you encountered that situation as the DB, what would you do?

 

Well, it's absolutely right. You're not there to run the project. You're there to help people, other people who are appointed to do that to run it. If you see that something's wrong. And that covers just about anything you can think of, well, why not just put it to them as a question, what are you doing about this? Or am I mistaken? But has this happened or has it not happened? and get people thinking, you're not there to push them about or tell them what to do. You can't issue instructions, you can't tell them how to build things. You're there to to help them and I think they also want to See value for money they want to see you contribute. And I think the latest statistic we had about value for money was certainly within region two, the cost of a dispute board was something like naught point naught five of 1% of the outturn value of the project. So in other words, we try to emphasise value not cost. Yeah.

 

Okay. Thanks. Thanks for that. That's for that, Jim. Somebody has asked, in fact, what were you effectively meeting privately with the, with the with the shipyard when you had that conversation?

 

Yes, I responded. Yes.

 

Yeah. So that's right. Yeah, I see. Okay, well, that's, that's an interesting one.

 

You say you're not there to sort of do the job for them. I had an example. And the ship yard had no idea how to build a drilling rig floor out to pipe it and where the machinery went, and so on and so forth. They had no drilling expertise at all. And the contractor, they the client, who was obviously a drilling company, just dug their heels in and refused to do anything about it. They didn't sort of say, Well, this is what we'd like to have. They said, it's in the contract, you are to design that. And then you give us the drawings, and we approve or disapprove, yeah, these under just an orphan situation. So I went into the client's office and had a drawing of the rig floor. And I had little cuts out, more or less to scale pictures of the equipment that goes on the rig floor, cut out, and I sort of stuck these all over the rig floor plan and said right now, is this the right position to work these things? With this suit? Yes or no? No, we want that one moved over here on this sort of stuff. And it made in about two hours, a little montage, or whatever you call it, where you've got these stuck on pieces of paper. And then I went back to the shipyard office drawing office and said there Yeah, that's what you now draw. And then it flowed from there on. And that situation does not arise often. But when it does, the intransigence of the client can really mess things up.

 

Yeah. Okay, Jim. Well, thank you, Martin. We can maybe take Jim off the panel now. Is anybody else in Bob ITM? Thank you for that. Ben, do you have any observations on what Jim's just been talking about? I think the whole business of private meetings with, you know, with, with parties is is is is quite a tricky one. I mean, as mediators, we do it all the time. But of course, we're, that's what the mediation agreement allows us to do. And that's what if you like the practice of mediation allows us to do

 

I have to admit, I'm at a significant disadvantage, because I couldn't hear what he said, for some reason I was not connected to. So I didn't get to enjoy his words of wisdom. But, but but I guess, certainly at the end of the day, that would be determined by the terms of the dispute board and their terms of engagement, I assume. And certainly, as you said, mediators ply their trade by having sort of shuttle diplomacy, private meetings between both both parties, and bringing them together jointly. When, when, when that's Yes, or deemed to be appropriate. So I guess it's, it's determined by the terms of that engagement. But yeah, unfortunately, couldn't hear him. So I can't really comment much further than that. I'm sorry to say,

 

Okay. JOHN, any any further thoughts on that? That topic?

 

What about meeting parties? Well, you don't need one party on their own?

 

Well, that would have been my view as well, actually. But

 

I mean, it does happen that you bump into people in airport lounges and you're fine. You're on the same plane that I'm in. Everybody's been very, very good about it and said, Hello, shook hands. How are you? And then you talk about sport or the weather or how is your journey? And that's it?

 

Yeah. Okay, john, that's very good. Well, at least we discovered that we have we had somebody on the call who had experience, although I suppose, Bill. Well, it was shipbuilding, I guess an oil rig. Wouldn't it be? Ben? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, what I've been hearing so far is that perhaps apart from the two areas, which might be interesting to explore, one is defence and I'm asked to take another look at the shipbuilding strategy and project delivery boards. And the other one is, is offshore energy of one sort or another, particularly In wind, and I think you mentioned, Ben that one of these new vessels that's been commissioned has a lifting capacity of 12,000 tonnes was it?

 

Yes, the Scorpio bolt carrier is one I. I don't recall, actually. But the mean that wind turbines themselves are over 200 metres tall and expected to probably max out in terms of size at 250 260 metres in height individually. So as they've got bigger, the ships required to transport than from, from their place of construction or to out to the wind farmer and his door have obviously increased as well. And it's, I mean, it's, it's economies of scale at the end of the day, they, they are much more efficient wind turbines. But actually, the logistics of installing these bigger wind turbines is slightly less, because fewer can be carried on board one ship at a time. So the ships are having to make more journeys and carry fewer of these fewer of these turbines. One of the sort of issues that's been discussed recently around this Scorpio bolt carriers order is there is the fact that ship owners have been held back somewhat in the last several, several years in ordering in the sector, because of the very quick evolution of wind turbine size and the fact that the technology and everything around it is, is evolving so quickly, so they didn't know considering it takes two to five years to build the ships. There's a concern that by the time you've this ship actually delivers it's it's already obsolete or or not perfectly fit for purpose. The the there seems to be sort of growing consensus that that's less of an issue now, because the wind turbines are sort of maxing out in size and expected to, to remain at around the size and the pasture that they are now. So providing a bit more certainty. And uncomfort to drone is like Scorpio.

 

And the 250 metres height, is that the height of the pillar? Or is it the total height of the pillar or whatever you call it? And

 

it's actually the it's the it's the height of the, from the sea level? It's the it's the height of the entire structure. But the and the wingspan, if you like of the turbines themselves is is a similar size.

 

Yeah. Okay. And we don't have if anybody wants to ask a question, perhaps they could indicate to Martin on chat. We've got probably about another five minutes. Left. Ben, is it worth just talking about the kinds of disputes that arise in shipbuilding contracts? I mean, do you have any experience with that? Or can you? Yes, more about that?

 

Well, yeah, I mean, absolutely. They're, I mean, they're extremely wide ranging, liquidated damages. And I imagined, there's a lot of overlap with with onshore construction disputes as well. A lot of disputes centred around time, where the time was at large, and who is responsible for, for delays? There's been a lot of legal discussion around the prevention principle in the UK and whether when and where the time is at large and who is responsible for for lost time, and force majeure situations and what is a force measure? Sort of delays associated with with unspecified events. So the I think that's probably encapsulates the majority of shipbuilding disputes. A while ago, after the sort of financial crisis, a lot of shipbuilding contracts were frustrated and ships just didn't get built. And there were orders for ships at shipyards that hadn't been built yet. And there was a lot of frustration, frustrated, you building contracts around that which caused a lot of work for fellow arbitrators. I'm sure that that seems to have mostly passed. And it's it's a lot around the prevention principle and force majeure situations and liquidated damages, I

 

think. Okay. Does anybody have any other questions? Otherwise, I was just going to make one quick observation. And then we might move to giving Ben a vote of thanks. I can't see anybody else on chat at the moment. Yeah. I was at the scma 10th anniversary conferences, the Singapore Chamber of maritime arbitration, I think, in Singapore at the back end of last year, and one of the senior guys from the port of Singapore came on to talk about their expansion plans, which are going to go to something I forget whether it's 40 or 60 million t Use 20 foot equivalent units by 2014. So another 20 years on, but what he said was a lot of this is obviously it's going to be a massive amount of construction work, but there's going to be a lot of work with systems because they're going to be working with artificial intelligence, driverless trucks, driverless cranes, and so on. And if we look at what's gone wrong with say with Crossrail and some other projects, particularly in defence, a lot of it is is problems with systems integration. And I perhaps see that as something which is going to be of increasing importance. Okay, well, thank you very much. JOHN, did we have somebody who was going to give a vote of thanks? Or perhaps Would you like to do it? Or I'll be I'll do it.

 

I think you're stuck with me actually joining her. Well, that's perfect. Um, just before I say a few words about bends, excellent, tall. Good, I just say that the Dr. bf is not an appointing body, it's a training body. And believe me, the training is pretty good that it gives. And it's also a body to help promote dispute boards. And if you do, click on Join Now, you can certainly give us here in the UK, some help in that if you're not based in the UK, you will almost certainly have a country rep in your country, who would be glad to have your help save membership fees vary from category to category, but they're pretty reasonable. If you want to know just a little bit more about D B's. Our experienced by way of research in Region two is fewer than 5% of DBS decisions are taken on to arbitration. And of all of those which are taken on to arbitration. The last percentage I heard was only 1.75% of those are decisions which are overturned. If you want to know more, to look into the dispute avoidance provisions, go to fidic.org. And you can buy one of their two Oh 17 contracts which have the DB rules in a little bit expensive, 4040 euros odd shot. But if you go to the ICC website, ICC w bo.org, you can download the dispute board rules free. And you will see in there that there are specific provisions for disputes avoidance, then you've given us a quite remarkable survey of shipbuilding as it was. And as I remember it, when I was young, I always remember watching the black and white television of when we used to run these huge ships down the ramps. In the days when we actually had an industry and what you said given has given me a lot of optimism about the future that we can build ships for the civil and the defence sectors.

And you also mentioned the wind farms. Well, heavens knows, you know, we've got enough wind and enough water around these, we can't make something out of that there's something wrong. And Jim touched on the oil and gas industry, we really need to try to penetrate that industry, we do feel that we can do a lot of good. And I'd like to thank you on behalf of all of our members here and everybody else who's listened to you. We have another breakfast meeting in November. Please watch out for that we have a lunch meeting on the 30th of September, which is important because that's when the identity of my successor will be revealed. And all members please do try and attend that and then we'll keep you up to date now that we've got your emails about future events, then you're going to be a hard act to follow. You've been brilliant in coming from a different industry, you know your stuff. And thank you for telling everybody how much good DBAs can do. It's been a very, very welcome start to the morning. Thank you very much. You're very welcome. Thank you.

 

Okay, thank you, Ben. Martin, would you like to then perhaps terminate the meeting, but leave the panellists on Can we do that is the course. Thank you.